Marianne Sison on Navigating Cultural Differences in Public Relations

In this conversation, Ana and Marianne explore the intricate relationship between communication, cultural competence, and Public Relations. They discuss the importance of understanding cultural contexts in communication strategies, the need for cultural curiosity, and the role of empathy and exposure in fostering cultural competence. The conversation also explore effective communication strategies during crises, the advocacy role of Public Relations practitioners, and the ethical responsibilities that come with the profession. Ultimately, they emphasize the need for Public Relations to evolve towards a more socially responsible and impactful practice.

Takeaways


• Marianne’s journey into PR began with a degree in broadcast communication.
• Cultural dynamics are essential in building relationships in PR.
• Marianne’s research focuses on the intersection of culture and Public Relations.
• The lack of ethnic diversity in the PR industry is concerning.
• Multicultural communication is often treated as an add-on rather than essential.
• Understanding cultural nuances is crucial for effective communication.
• Understanding language is crucial for effective communication.
• Cultural curiosity is essential for learning.
• Cultural competence can be trained and verified.
• Diversity should be viewed as an asset, not a liability.
• Public Relations practitioners should advocate for peace.
• Effective communication requires understanding community needs.
• Ethical practice is critical for the future of PR.
• Cultural competence is included in the global capability framework.
• Public Relations can contribute to social change.

Transcript (generated with Riverside.fm)

Ana (00:02.262)
So Marianne, welcome to the show.

Marianne (00:05.272)
Thank you for having me, Anna. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Ana (00:08.94)
Now, all the guests that we meet on this show, they usually start with one question, and that is, how did you end up in PR?

Marianne (00:19.118)
Okay, my first entry into public relations was my first job after I graduated from the University of the Philippines, right? So that was how I got into the industry. It was a job for public relations assistant, but my degree, you know, there was no public relations degree then. It was a broadcast communication degree.

But I enjoyed writing, I did journalism electives, I enjoyed organizing events, I was part of an association at university, the journalism club. And then I found that public relations actually can combine both production and writing and organization. So there you go, that’s public relations in a nutshell, isn’t it?

Ana (00:49.862)
I was part of an association of university journalism.

Ana (00:59.55)
and writing and organization. So there you go. That’s public relations in a nutshell, isn’t it? It is. I mean, it’s so interesting. This is our third series. We’ve had several guests so far from various parts of the world. And what strikes me is how common this idea of starting in journalism is, right? Accidental pathways as well. And yes, we have that.

coming up in research, but this love for storytelling, love for writing and journalism. And sometimes I wonder, how do you deal with the change of perspective? mean, when we talk about stereotypes, journalism comes with a wonderful shiny, odd, protective stereotype, doing good for the world. And I fully agree with that. But…

What I don’t understand is what happens. Why is it that public relations tends to use all those skills and yet loses the glamour, right? The acceptance, the legitimacy if you want. How did that make you feel? Did that happen to you?

Marianne (02:14.222)
Well, yeah, see the interesting thing is the notion of public relations as spin. In my view, came from the journalists who actually could not understand why public relations practitioners, you know, were able to generate much traction, earn more money, but still be in the background. See, so in my view,

Ana (02:17.281)
Interesting.

Marianne (02:44.554)
And then they generated this us and them kind of, you know, dynamic. But see, my master’s degree thesis was actually exploring those differences because I saw it in practice and a lot of my friends were journalists. And I found the common ground, is, or boundary spanning, you know, because both practice

Ana (02:46.178)
then they generated this us in them.

Ana (02:53.01)
My master’s degree thesis was actually exploring those differences as I saw it in practice and a lot of my friends were journalists. I found a common ground which is boundary spanning. Practices actually look at both various spheres of influence and they put them together.

Marianne (03:12.322)
practices actually look at various spheres of influence and they put them together in a way. So my argument, and it still is, is that, and I know journalists for a fact, and you can see it in the media today, a lot of the news articles still are generated from media releases, and you can see the commonality of the terms.

Ana (03:23.288)
So, my argument, and it still is, is that, and I know journalists for a fact, but you can see it in the media today. A lot of the news articles still are generated from media releases, and you can see the commonality of the terms. They just tweak it a bit, but they need us as well as we need them. So, boundaries spanning. Boundaries spanning.

Marianne (03:40.95)
You know, they just tweak it a bit, but they need us as well as we need them. But,

boundary spanners that we both are.

Ana (03:53.564)
Well, that’s something to look up to. We’ll keep that in mind. Now, there’s something else, though. You are an active researcher. There’s quite a long and impressive and impactful research legacy that you’ve left. But for my classes, for instance, one of the things that we use from your writing has to do with culture.

Now, how did you come up with that idea of linking public relations with culture? A lot of the research that the mainstream public relations research looks at, the interest of the organizations looks at, conveying those desires, wishes, or protecting the organizations, right, to the outside. And here you are with your research, you come and say, well, wait, we’ve forgot about people in this and culture.

Marianne (04:52.267)
So my initial entry into culture was really on organizational culture, right? Because I still believe. See, I was a student of Marianne Ferguson in the University of Florida, right? And she’s one of our foremost academics who really said that public relations is about relationships. And how can you not?

Ana (05:14.612)
and how can you not?

Marianne (05:15.808)
include culture when you’re talking about people who are trying to develop relationships with each other. You look at their values, your behaviors and beliefs. And that’s one, right? But for my own personal experience, so I was born and educated in the Philippines. Then I worked there for a few years. Then I went to the US and studied in the University of Florida and worked there in

Ana (05:26.981)
and that’s one but for my own personal experience I was born and educated in the Philippines then I worked there for a few years then I went to the US and studied in the University of Florida and worked there in California and then I went back to the Philippines

Marianne (05:44.91)
California and then I went back to the Philippines and even then it was interesting I could you know having this American knowledge and experience I was actually confronted by my own Philippine culture and the practices of public relations there it was totally different right then I you know out from my personal work I

Ana (05:52.598)
And even then, it was interesting. could, you know, having this American knowledge and experience, I was actually confronted by my own Philippine culture and the practices of public relations there. It was totally different, right? Then I, you know, out from my personal work.

Marianne (06:13.454)
I found myself in Melbourne because I married my husband now. He migrated to Melbourne. So I moved to Melbourne, Australia, where I have lived for more than half of my life now. So I’m practically Australian in a lot of my thinking, but I cannot remove my Filipinianess and my American knowledge, education, American education with me.

Ana (06:14.552)
I in Melbourne as I married my husband now. He migrated to Melbourne. So I moved to Melbourne, Australia. Where I have lived for more than half of my life. I’m practically Australian in a lot of my thinking. But I cannot remove my Filipino-ness and my American knowledge.

and education. So here I am being a public relations academic in Australia. was one, I have been one of the first Asians in our school, in our department. when you say it most Asians and most Filipino migrants then would not go into public relations, more so a communication school.

Marianne (06:40.352)
So here I am being a public relations academic in Australia. I must have been one of the first Asians in our school, in our department. when you say you talk with most Asians and most Filipino migrants then would not go into public relations, more so a communication school, right? And even that, even with my…

Ana (07:06.04)
And even that, even with my relatively okay credentials, I could not land a job in Australia because I live in the US. Anyway, so from my own personal experience, my work in culture came much later in my academic life. So when I was doing public relations, I teaching the generic, know, culturally…

Marianne (07:09.102)
you know, relatively okay credentials. I could not land a job straight up as an academic because I’m from the Philippines. Anyway, so for my own personal experience, my work in culture came much later in my academic life. So when I was doing public relations, I was teaching, was teaching the generic, you know, culturally absent. Everything was just

Ana (07:34.812)
everything was just function in my opinion. The social cultural aspects were not quite as up front in our teaching and also in the research.

Marianne (07:35.736)
functionalists in my opinion. The socio-cultural aspects were not quite as upfront in our teaching and also in the research. And then when I started writing after my PhD, and my PhD was around organizational value setting, I could not actually get any of my papers published.

Ana (07:51.352)
When I started writing after my PhD, my PhD was around organizational value center. I could not actually get any of my papers published because it was too generic. And there are other people in Western nations more interested in Probably, you know, could be much better than that. And Australian scholarship also was very new.

Marianne (08:03.958)
because it was too generic and there are other people in Western nations, more Western scholars who probably could do much better than that. And Australian scholarship also is very new. And then when I tried to, I think I was asked to write a book chapter on, I think it must have been Sri Ramesh, who is one of our excellent leaders who pushed the notion of multiculturalism in public relations.

Ana (08:17.24)
And then when I tried to, I think I was asked to write up a chapter on, think it must have been, Srebramich, who is one of our excellent leaders, who pushed the notion of multiculturalism and we had met before in Singapore, I said, I don’t know, something on the Philippines, I said, okay. And after that, there was already, now there’s a Philippines chapter on political justice.

Marianne (08:32.374)
and we had met before in Singapore. he says, why don’t you do something on the Philippines? So I said, okay. And after that, there was already a, now there’s a Philippine chapter on public relations. And it’s sort, and I said, so there is a gap. It was a gap in the literature, obviously, And, but to me, I don’t want to be just, you know, limited to the Philippines. I wanted to expand it to the Asia Pacific.

Ana (08:45.404)
And I said, so there is a gap. There was a gap in the literature of this.

Ana (08:58.292)
I wanted to expand it to the Asian city, South East Asia because again there was a gap. There must have been a lot of work.

Marianne (09:00.608)
Southeast Asia because again there was a gap. There must have been a lot of work, some emerging work from China eventually and it’s because a lot of our, as you know, a lot of our scholars, our students in America for instance and maybe in the UK are coming from Asian countries more and of course there’s a lot more publications in that space. So my area in cultural diversity

Ana (09:09.944)
eventually. And it’s because a lot of our, as you know, a lot of

students in America for instance, and maybe in the UK, are coming from Asian countries more and of course there’s a lot more coming.

So my area of cultural diversity was pretty out of, was pretty different and automated by my own experience of the lack of literature in that space and how I could contribute to that. Okay. But you said something that’s really, really interesting there, that you felt your Filipineness coming out.

Marianne (09:29.878)
was really triggered and motivated by my own interest, by my own experience of the lack of literature in that space and how I could contribute to fill that gap in the knowledge.

Marianne (09:54.243)
No.

Ana (09:54.408)
in the US and then later on in Australia, what does that mean? I mean, you spoke about how important it is to build relationships in public relations. So interpersonal communication and this dealing with one another is important. What is it so different from the Philippines or what do you feel that that was so different in the Philippines that you brought with you that maybe doesn’t quite fit with

you know, the cultural customs of either the US or Australia.

Marianne (10:31.367)
So when I went back to the Philippines, I had this whole idea of what public relations should be according to the Western mindset. And you have to do certain things this way. But in the Philippines, you can’t be direct. have to go, it’s like it’s a, in the power distance culture. Totally different. You have to go around, you cannot ask a question as directly as you would.

And the layers of hierarchy, power hierarchy, for example, you can’t just call Anna, Anna, like you’re Professor Adi, right? That’s how we would say in the Philippines. You cannot say professor or call a professor by the first names. So I had to go back to that. Now, when I came to Australia, I had to shift again because here in Australia, nobody calls any, in the Philippines, we call everyone sir or ma’am.

Ana (11:00.973)
years.

Ana (11:06.776)
If you’re a professor, that’s how we would say it the Philippines. I’m not saying professor or one of the first names. So I had to go back. Now when I came to Australia, had to shift the… Because here in Australia, nobody calls any… In the Philippines, they call everyone sir or ma’am. And here in Australia, you’re a sir or ma’am, or sir, you should be knighted.

Marianne (11:27.854)
And here in Australia, if you’re a Sir, or a Ma, or a Sir mostly, you should be knighted, said. So, yes, so you can, you know, so there’s a lot of this, what they call code switching, which is a new term, again, that I learned from my younger colleagues, that you switch your language and your mindset to the culture that you are operating in. But…

Ana (11:35.0)
So, yes, so you can have, you know, so there’s a lot of this what you call cold switching, which is a new term again that I learned from my younger colleagues.

witch.

and your mindset, to the culture that…

Marianne (11:57.046)
So there’s a lot of ongoing translation in your head, you know, in your language and even in the approach. And that’s why I think it’s extremely important for communication and public relations practitioners to understand these nuances because sometimes we bring our own assumptions because we think we’re the experts. Right?

Ana (11:57.581)
So there’s a lot of ongoing translation in your head, you know, in your language, and even in the approach. And that’s why I think it’s extremely important for communication and public relations that we understand this nuances. Sometimes we bring our own assumptions because we think we’re the experts.

That makes me wonder, if because you talk about the experience of someone who’s migrated. it’s it’s it’s you and your first experience of migration. But Australia is is is known for like like the US to a degree for having this multi-fabric society. Right. So I really wonder. And this is something that happens in Germany right now and in many other places in Europe where we have these layers, if you want, of being a migrant. There are people who just move.

for the first time. So that might be your experience and mine, this code switching. But there are some that are first or second generation migrants. So in that case, they still retain some of the cultural habits, if you want, or expressions. They might still live in families that are either multilingual and that their past work of culture in a sense. I wonder how that code switching happens to them.

Marianne (13:02.776)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ana (13:17.662)
as it does to us. don’t know, do you have any insight? Your students maybe? And colleagues?

Marianne (13:21.794)
Yeah, well, yeah, I have spoken. mean, I have my children were born here, both Filipino parents, but they have no, they cannot speak the language. Right. So, but, and that’s why I’ve always continue, I’m continually asking younger generations, second and third, but I’m finding now, and this is just my own experience here in Melbourne, and I’m just talking Melbourne society. That’s all I.

that there are more younger Filipino second generation Filipinos, I should say, Filipino Australians who are more comfortable identifying as Filipino heritage.

Ana (14:06.808)
Mm.

Marianne (14:08.648)
Even, even Hollywood celebrities. I’ll give you an example. Olivia Rodrigo is half Filipino. She just had a concert here. And then there’s a few others. And now they’re actually coming out with identifying their heritage because we can, we can talk about it now. During when we were growing up, we sort of, you know, hide or…

Ana (14:10.356)
Even Hollywood celebrities. I’ll you an example. Olivia Rodrigo is half Filipino. She just came out of also.

There’s a few others, and now they’re actually coming out with identifying their heritage because we can. We can talk about it. During when we were growing up, we sort of, you know, subsumed our cultural heritage because it’s sort of not, I don’t know, in some countries anyway. That’s my experience. might be better in other countries. But now it’s also, it might…

Marianne (14:36.236)
subsume our cultural heritage because it’s sort of not, I don’t know, in some countries anyway, that’s my experience. It might be better in other countries. But now it’s also, it see my challenge is it might also be going back to that where you have to hide part of your heritage because of the polarization that’s happening and this fragmentation and.

Ana (14:49.944)
So you think that in a sense, let me ask there and clarify. So you think that our

Marianne (15:03.177)
know, the emergence of racism, et cetera. So…

Ana (15:14.328)
the younger generations that are more open in accepting their heritage, this is something that is indicative of the times, Is this what you’re saying? That it’s a time to be more comfortable, whereas when you were a few years younger, the expectation was to be assimilated, sort of blend in and blend in, Blend and blend. Blend and blend.

Marianne (15:41.038)
But I can’t blend in. Basically, I’m just…

Ana (15:44.594)
Hahaha

So, but that’s a nice transition. mean, you mentioned looking at cultural diversity. We’ll come back to the research because there’s this one article that you wrote quite some years ago when you were asking about whose cultural values is public relations representing. But before we go there, you’ve completed a research project just recently on cultural diversity in the Australian.

communication industry. Now from this part of the ocean, pond and mountains, you want, Australia is very diverse. But I wonder if there are any surprising findings that come up from your study. And you’ve looked both at agency and in-house practitioners, haven’t you?

Marianne (16:39.086)
So the research was conducted in 2021 and 2022. And it was sponsored by Scanlon Foundation and Think HQ, which is a consultancy. Now, Scanlon Foundation has been one of our…

leaders in advocating for social cohesion. So that was what their motivation was. So the results actually were not quite, were not surprising at all. There was little ethnic diversity among practitioners. Most of them come from Anglo-Celtic background, but there was some second or third generation Australians with a background in, from Europe or Asia and Latino, Asian, Latino and European heritage.

Ana (17:04.087)
The results actually were not quite so. We’re not surprising at all. There was little and big diversity among friends.

them come from a kind of healthy.

there was some second or third generation Australians with a background from Europe or Asia.

Marianne (17:26.446)
Now, you put that against the ethnic backgrounds of Australian populations in general. Now, there are 30 % of Australians who are born overseas, according to the 2021 Australian Census, and almost half of the Australian population in the Census

Ana (17:28.192)
Now, you put that against the diverse, you know, the ethnic backgrounds of Australian populations in general. Now, there are 30 % of Australians who are born overseas. According to the 2021 Australian census, almost half of the Australian population in the census have least one parent born.

Marianne (17:54.882)
have at least one parent born overseas, right? So that’s why the multiculturalism aspect of Australia is quite strong and we are really quite happy that it is what it is. But in the industry, it wasn’t reflected as much as it was in the community.

Ana (17:59.736)
So that’s why the multiculturalism has to

Ana (18:12.018)
But in the industry…

Ana (18:17.57)
reflected as much as it was in the

Marianne (18:22.018)
However, one of the interesting things that the research showed is about 97 % of the respondents were wanting to talk about cultural diversity or want to have more cultural diversity in the industry. The challenge was they did not know how to get there. So I would argue also that the leadership

Ana (18:22.764)
However, one of the interesting things that the research showed is about 97 % of the respondents were wanting to…

Ana (18:42.008)
they did not know how to get there. So I would argue also that the leadership, and I think we found this, that the leadership in industry was still quite unlovable. So there are very few public relations.

Marianne (18:53.254)
And I think we found this that the leadership in the industry was still quite Anglo-Celtic. So there are very few public relations leaders of both agents, mostly in agencies who come from a diverse, culturally diverse background, but there’s very few and far between. It’s changing a lot.

Ana (19:08.12)
leaders of both agents, mostly in agencies who are of diverse cultural diverse background. It’s changing a lot. And you know, one of the things that both came out is we don’t have a pipeline of culturally diverse practitioners and graduates from universities, right?

Marianne (19:21.814)
And you know, one of the things that also came out is we don’t have a pipeline of culturally diverse practitioners and graduates from universities, right? So we also have a responsibility in academia to generate that pipeline of practitioners who will move into the industry after they graduate.

Ana (19:37.964)
So we also have a responsibility in academia to generate that pipeline of practitioners who will move into the industry after they graduate. And that, we identified that as one of the barriers. But even if we have them there,

Marianne (19:51.5)
And that we identified that as one of the barriers to getting there. But even if we have them there, the leadership, as we call it, it used to be glass ceiling for gender, right? But now we also have the bamboo ceiling or whatever other ceiling for culturally diverse practitioners. But that comes across not only in the public relations industry, but across a lot of the industry sectors here in Australia.

Ana (20:02.786)
the leadership, as we call it, it used to be glass ceiling for gender, right? But now we also have the dampers.

Ana (20:13.975)
That’s awesome.

industry but across a lot of the industries that we’re seeing. It’s being identified in some other research outside.

Marianne (20:21.076)
it’s been identified in some other research outside of public relations. But yeah, so and you know what was interesting? We found out that so this research occurred after well just after the pandemic and I don’t know how it was in other countries but in Australia the most

Ana (20:29.42)
Yes, so, you know what was interesting? We found out that this research occurred just after the pandemic. And I don’t know how it was in other countries, but in Australia, the most affected people in terms of the communication aspect were the art cars.

Marianne (20:50.766)
affected people in terms of the communication aspect with our multicultural community members. Because the language, there was not a lot of appropriately translated language or communication material that the communities were able to access.

Ana (20:59.416)
I’m working on that.

Because the language, there was not a lot of appropriate translated language or communication material that the communities were able to access. Because everything was assumed, all the materials that existed were in English. There were some translations, but when it comes to health crisis, there was very limited.

Marianne (21:17.538)
because everything was assumed, all the materials that existed were in English. There were some translations, but when it comes to health crisis, there was very limited materials and resources. So what the government did after a few missteps in the early part of the pandemic communication.

Ana (21:32.45)
very limited materials and resources. So what the government did after a few missteps in the early part of

They put more resources into multiculturalism.

Marianne (21:46.21)
they put more resources into multicultural communication. And that’s one of the interesting findings that I heard from the respondents is that multicultural communication became an add-on, not a must-have, right? So what that means was resources were added on during the crisis, which helped.

Ana (21:51.868)
And that’s one of the interesting findings that I heard from the respondents is that multicultural communication became an add-on, not a must-have. So what that means was resources were added on during the crisis, which helped a lot and was effective.

Marianne (22:15.638)
Okay, a lot, and there was effective communication. Now what happened afterwards? I heard post crisis communication, post pandemic communication, some of these resources were removed. So now you can see that multicultural communication really was not a priority program.

Ana (22:22.168)
Now what happened afterwards? heard post-pandemic communication, some of these resources were revoked. So now you can see that multicultural communication was not made by your hand.

Marianne (22:46.533)
in many of our industry sectors.

Ana (22:51.797)
But let’s go back a little bit because there are a few things you’re saying, right? That when it comes to recruiting diverse talents in the profession, this lack of pipeline, it’s not only due to whoever is there. mean, we tend to like to surround ourselves with people like us, right? So that whether we call it bias or whether we call it sort of in-group cohesion,

That is the reality. But there’s something at consideration stages that migrant communities or language diverse communities dismiss, right? And I think that goes back to skill. If you have a migrant background, we’ve associated public relations a lot with a language skill.

And I see that over and over. mean, we’ve had guests in previous episodes on the podcast who have made a brilliant career despite language. There’s Joe Osborne, has lived, you know, grew up in Hong Kong, for instance, and she’s made a career in Italy. Now, she’s back in England. But still, the idea is that you can have people who thrive, who would be recognized for their

their strategic thinking for their ability to bridge across cultures, but this is still rather rare. The other thing that you’re saying is that this is an add-on. Now, we need to clarify that a little bit. And I think the article that we’ve mentioned earlier is maybe the way to do it, right? This communicating across, within, and between cultures.

This is to me, this is the article, your article where you emphasize how important it is to understand cultural dynamics in communication strategies. So can you explain a little bit the way you thought of that? And then maybe then we can bring it back to the add on of the pandemic communication and how that looks.

Marianne (25:00.226)
Well, you see, my understanding of strategic communication is that you need, and we talk about this in class, you need to know about the global context. You need to talk about the regional context. You need to talk about the local context. And that’s what we call in the contextual intelligence component in the Global Alliance Capability Framework to which I was part of.

And if you are going to advise your client or your boss or where your corporation has to go, you need to understand all these levels of socioeconomic politics, technological and all that, best thing and the media, of course. Now, if we don’t…

Ana (25:42.786)
We need to understand all these levels of social, cultural, economic, politics, technological, and all that, the best thing, and the media. Now, if we don’t understand how culture operates in these institutions, financial, media, especially.

Marianne (25:58.442)
understand how culture operates in these institutions, financial, know, media, especially governments. What are we there for then? Because we are part of this translating, it’s sort of a translating component that we are translating for our CEO, right? We’re translating, you know, this complex wicked problems to our

Ana (26:09.456)
What are we there for then? Because we are part of this translating component that we are translating for our CEO, right? We’re translating these complex, wicked problems to our clients and to our internal homes, know, stakeholders. So that’s why it’s a communicative.

Marianne (26:27.352)
clients and to our internal comms, know, stakeholders. So that’s why it’s a communicative role and function. language and communication is part of a culture, right? So if we don’t understand how language operates, you know, like as an example, even the notion of choosing your channels for communication, choosing your platform.

Ana (26:37.666)
role and function. And language and communication is part of a culture. Right? So if we don’t understand how language operates, you know, like, as an example, even the notion of choosing your channels for communication, choosing your platform. And we don’t try to understand, we don’t try to find out what are the most effective.

Marianne (26:57.984)
And we don’t try to understand, we don’t try to find out what are the most effective ways for a particular group of people. Then we’re not doing the job. To me it’s quite basic, but people sometimes tend to do the easiest, the most expedient way, the more common, okay, we’ll use social media. Hang on, the elderly, migrants from South Africa or…

Ana (27:06.55)
ways for a particular group. Then we want to engage. To me it’s quite basic, but people sometimes tend to do the easiest, the most expedient way, the more common, okay, we’ll do social media. Hang on, the elderly, the migrants from South Africa, don’t actually work home.

Marianne (27:26.658)
don’t actually, or from Burma or Myanmar or India, they don’t use social media as much as you think we and I do. So.

Ana (27:31.144)
They don’t use social media as much as we think we would either. So, you know, if it’s about culture from within, mean, we also have to approach that across, and it’s just an openness to learning, I think.

Marianne (27:38.54)
You know, if it’s about culture from within, I mean, we also have to acknowledge that across and it’s just an openness to learning. I think that’s important. What I call and I mentioned this in class, we have to have this notion of cultural curiosity. Okay. Because if we don’t inquire, we only assume that the knowledge we have is what it is, but there’s a lot we don’t know.

There is a lot we don’t know. We make assumptions. So I often ask someone who tells me something, so where did you find out that information? then, you know, like, and what did you think about it? And it’s often a media outlet that has particular points of view. And that’s fine. But this is the criticality that also is missing in a lot of the practice. So yeah, it’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of…

Ana (28:08.368)
And we take for granted.

Ana (28:15.992)
end.

Ana (28:19.458)
think about.

Ana (28:25.228)
Mm-hmm.

criticality that also is missing.

Ana (28:35.608)
You’ve mentioned the global capability framework and working with with Anne Gregory and we’ve had Anne as well on the podcast several episodes ago. So with the global capability framework, you’re thinking overall of what would the profession need. So both you and I and everybody else that works in public relations in order to deliver a

Marianne (28:36.994)
thinking that needs to really

Marianne (28:46.99)
Yeah.

Ana (29:05.624)
legitimate service, right? An impactful legitimate profession. And that has to do, of course, with education, with specialism, but it’s all of us together. So that means that one of us can do better in one aspect than another, right? Still, you talk about cultural competence and you talk about cultural competence within this framework. in HR speak, competence is something that you can train and you can verify.

There’s a test. So how does this cultural competence, how do we train our students so there’s capability versus competence? Competence is something that you and I would have, that you and I can demonstrate. How do we get there? And how do we test the existence of cultural competence?

Marianne (29:55.679)
Uhhh…

Ana (29:55.778)
How did you think of that?

Marianne (30:00.579)
Well, competence. would act, because competency, and you know how they say competency, you have to have particular skills and knowledge. So I don’t know if you can really test and measure that, because again, the questioning of the test or the creation of the test will actually depend on one’s cultural biases and frameworks. So there is no, there is not, it’s not a generic kind of, okay, I’ll test you for, it’s not a,

Ana (30:23.168)
No, there is not.

Marianne (30:29.474)
functionalist mathematical equation that you know you’re good in values or you could at least a language you have five languages you know you live in three or four countries and you have parents from different heritage that doesn’t make you competent necessarily because you could you know it could it doesn’t mean that you probably have a capability to understand different cultures but do you have a cultural competency

Ana (30:32.852)
that you know you’re good in values or you’re good at this language, you five languages, know you live in three or four countries and you have parents from different heritage that doesn’t make you competent necessarily because you know it doesn’t mean that you probably have the ability to understand different cultures but you have a cultural competency

Marianne (30:59.296)
I don’t know if that’s sufficient because I would like to think this is why my view is a quest for knowledge. So your cultural competence would be, and this is just out of, it’s your willingness to actually learn about others, other cultures. Now to me, I don’t know, this is one of the Western concepts that actually

Ana (30:59.884)
I don’t know if that’s sufficient.

Ana (31:05.624)
would like to think this is why my view is customer knowledge. So your thoughts of competence would be, and this is just, know, your willingness to actually learn about others’ other cultures. Now, to me, I don’t know, this one of the Western concepts that actually I was quite inspired by whether people really want to…

Marianne (31:28.734)
I was quite inspired by whether people agree with it or not, is the notion of requisite variety. So it’s Carl Weich, but it actually came from another scholar from the US. So the notion of requisite variety assumes that an organization will actually perform better and more effectively if it has different people within that organization, right? It’s the same. So I would argue that

Ana (31:34.656)
is the notion of requisite variety. So it’s Carl Weib, it actually goes from another scholar from the US. So the notion of requisite variety assumes that an organization will actually perform better and more effectively if it has different legal organizations, right? It’s the same. So I would argue that an organization is enjoying

Marianne (31:59.158)
an organization whose employees and leaders all have diverse backgrounds, not just in terms of professional backgrounds, but cultural backgrounds. So one of my questions always, what’s your staffing compliments in terms of different cultural backgrounds? You you look at that. But not only that, where are they in the hierarchy?

Ana (32:03.841)
and leaders all have diverse backgrounds, not just in terms of professional life, but cultural life. So one of my…

your staffing complement in terms of different backgrounds, not only that, where are they in the hierarchy?

Marianne (32:29.134)
Because often than not, you’ll see them more culturally diverse, not at the management or leadership levels. So that’s what I think we should encourage. Because the moment you have a leader there, who comes from a culturally diverse background, they already have a natural affinity, a natural disposition to it. And they understand their own

Ana (32:33.592)
get worse.

Ana (32:40.376)
think we should encourage because the moment you have a leader there, comes from a cultural diverse background, they already have a natural affinity, a natural disposition to it. And they understand their own possible experiences of being culturally diverse when they were not a leader yet.

Marianne (32:58.252)
possible experiences of being culturally diverse when they were not a leader yet. there’s that lived experience as they say would really enable cultural competency. I don’t know. It’s a work in progress, Ana, and there’s probably work or research that can still be developed in that.

Ana (33:04.482)
So there’s that, we have experience as they say, with being able talks of confidence.

Ana (33:14.872)
Well, think there several elements in there, right? This curiosity that you talk about alludes to empathy. And empathy, though, requires experience and exposure, right? So in a sense, exposure is what we might get either through these

different family histories that you’ve described, but experience sometimes is required through the immersion, right? So you’ve mentioned that living in several places. if you, doesn’t have to be several countries, but sometimes living in several places, know, different environments would be enough. And sometimes that empathy can be sharpened without having these two, right? And then there’s knowledge, then it’s about learning in the classroom. So these are the four elements in a sense that I…

that I see. But you can’t get to that level of curiosity and empathy without having felt the pains yourself. And this is, in a sense, what you were saying as well. So cultural competence is now included in the global capability framework. You’re saying that we should strive to have that.

The risk that I see, and this is what has happened in many parts in Europe with diversity and inclusion, is that people then look at diversity and inclusion as a list, right? And then as a checklist, and they try to have one of each. Which is very, very difficult because you can be, and this is what I say, at any given point in time, each and one of us can be the odd one out.

You can be the oldest person in the room, the youngest person in the room. That is an element of diversity that brings all sorts of assumptions of experience and context. So we need the cultural competence. That means that it’s on us in how we teach and how we lead these conversations. It’s also how we facilitate those conversations to take place in organizations. But how do we get that back at societal level?

Ana (35:34.153)
And so you mentioned the pandemic and you mentioned this add-on cultural communication. Can we go back and see if you have any examples of how, how you mentioned channels and patterns of consumption? That’s fair. You mentioned language. Still, how do we bring them together in a way that in a campaign we communicate in a way that is understandable with everybody?

yet specific to everybody so that culturally they resonate. And therefore, because they resonate, hopefully there’s this more deeper, authentic connection with each community. Have you got any ideas? Did that happen in Australia? I mean, there’s usually a hope that it happened in Australia because as you said, it’s such a wonderful and diverse place.

Marianne (36:20.204)
Well, what?

Marianne (36:25.027)
Yeah.

Marianne (36:29.548)
Well, what was, as I said, think there was an example that was mentioned by my participants and it had to do with the resources. one of the things they really, and this was someone from in the healthcare sector, and she said that, you know, most of our staff come from a culturally diverse background.

And yet we didn’t actually…

Marianne (37:05.326)
capitalize on their own skills and abilities until later. And then, because they all said, there’s no money, there’s no funding for translation. But hello, it’s not just translation. It’s about identifying who are the community leaders who people trust for the communication. And then they will

Ana (37:07.052)
on their

Ana (37:11.096)
skills and abilities until later. then to say also, there’s no money, there’s no funding for translation. Hello, it’s not just translation. It’s about identifying who are the community leaders who then will, you know, who people trust for the communication. And then they will bring that conversation to their communities. But one example in the channels, which is quite interesting.

Marianne (37:32.428)
bring that conversation to their communities. But one example in the channels, which is quite interesting. So they were trying to, you know, of course, during the pandemic, everyone wanted in Australia, depending on which state you are, everyone is encouraged to have a vaccination thing. And of course, some cultures were so against, you know, they have different views on that. But the first one, one of the first channels that was mentioned, let’s just go on social media.

Ana (37:40.824)
And then we’re trying to, know, of course, and then maybe everyone wanted observe it, depending on which state you are. Everyone is encouraged to have a vaccination. And of course, some cultures were so against, you know, they have different views on that. The first, one of the first channels that was mentioned, let’s just go on social media, right?

Marianne (38:02.444)
right? But as I said, the elderly in the community don’t necessarily go on Instagram or Twitter or whatever, X whatever you call our face, maybe Facebook. Yes, they do because it’s, but they said no, they gather in this particular community center every for a particular day and we just put a poster, the old fashioned way, you know, like, it’s still a trusted form of communication. And

Ana (38:04.28)
I said the elderly in the community don’t necessarily go on Instagram or Twitter or whatever, Facebook. Yes, they do. But they said no, they gather in this particular community center every day a particular day and just put a post. The old fashioned way, know, like still a trusted form of communication. And because in some cultures interpersonal communication, as you know, actually,

Marianne (38:29.378)
Because in some cultures, interpersonal communication, as you know, actually generates more traction and more credibility than any of the sophisticated digitized media. And so for that example, they said, yeah, you know, and we have staff, we have employees who go home to their communities, their families. We actually can just, you know, ask them to relay the information and we don’t have to spend money.

Ana (38:34.234)
generates more affection and more credibility than any other sophisticated digitalized community. And so for that example, they said, yeah, you know, and we have staff, we have employees who go home to their community and families. We actually can just, you know, ask them to read the information and we don’t have to spend money. I mean, we have to have some training so you make sure that the communication is sound.

Marianne (38:58.594)
have to have some training so you make sure that communication is what you want it to be. So there are ways, except that sometimes it’s also our fault because we just have these boxes of practice that we don’t want, we don’t think about, so we don’t have to think about the next, but just being creative in the approach. And a lot of times I find,

Ana (39:06.52)
So there are ways, except that sometimes it’s also our fault because we just have these boxes.

Ana (39:18.872)
think about the next one. But just be creative in the approach and a lot of time. I find it’s the people from cultural and diverse backgrounds who actually come up with these ideas themselves.

Marianne (39:25.408)
It’s the people from culturally diverse background who actually come with these ideas themselves. go to, and what we call co-creation is now the way to go because, you know, we are not the experts alone, but also the communities have to tell us what works for them. It’s in the community development scholarship literature, they call it participatory communication, right? And we’ve sort of in…

Ana (39:32.236)
we call co-creation is now the way to go because you know we are not experts of our learners, the communities have to tell us what works for them. It’s in the community development scholarship, they call it participatory communication. And we’ve sort of brought this in into the public relations communication spaces as well so we’ve encroached a little bit and we call it co-creation and engagement.

Marianne (39:51.79)
brought this in into the public relations communication space as well. So we’ve encroached a little bit and we call it co-creation and engagement. So yeah, there are ways to generate and as I said, learn from others, not just become the, we’re not just the experts. And again, it’s being open to learning and being open to new knowledge and practice.

Ana (40:02.97)
But you see all this co-creation, being devil’s advocate here for a moment.

Marianne (40:24.654)
So.

Ana (40:27.41)
We’ve had in public relations scholarship, and this is so evident if you look into practice, this emphasis on not only justifying the value and worth of public relations, but demonstrating impact. So impact, we have these two wonderful words of efficiency and effectiveness. And one of them out of these two fancy words is related to resources.

Marianne (40:41.921)
Okay.

Ana (40:56.436)
If you want to save money, right, money and people, obviously, then you’re going to have a one size fits all sort of message. And now here you are and you’re saying, wait, in order for you to be effective, it’s not a one size fits all. You actually need to allocate resources and have curious enough people that are going to take their time and go into these communities and therefore craft your messages.

And not only your messages, but the format of that, so the delivery, package the messages in a way that is appealing or resonating with the community. So how do we save money then? How is that, you know, where’s the efficiency and effectiveness?

Marianne (41:39.51)
This is why it is.

Marianne (41:43.81)
Well, this is why it always comes down to money and its resource. And that came out really clearly. this is the thing also, before I answer that, I have one thing that I wanted to share. One of the things that we forget, and it came out of that research, is that when cultural diversity is not a liability, should not be a liability, it should be an asset, right?

Ana (42:06.904)
is not a liability, should not be a liability, should be an asset, right? And this is why, when you think about your own employees or your own colleagues, use them, know, like, not use them as a function, but explore how you can.

Marianne (42:11.51)
And this is why when you think about your own employees or your own colleagues, use them, you know, like not use them in a functionalist way, but explore how you can, how they can contribute to the conversation. Because sometimes you don’t need a consultant, a specialist consultant for that. You have it in house already. So you have to understand who is working in your, in your organization. And if you don’t have enough, that’s why you bring them in.

Ana (42:25.848)
how they can contribute to the conversation. Because sometimes you don’t need a consultant, especially if it’s consulting for that. You have it figured out already. So you have to understand who is working in your organization. And if you don’t have enough, that’s why you bring them in. That’s why you recruit. So your recruitment is not just to pick the boxes on the D &I. It’s actually also for your own capability development in that space. Now, how many leaders are willing to do that?

Marianne (42:40.802)
That’s why you recruit. So your recruitment is not just to pick the boxes on the D &I, you know, it’s actually also for your own capability development in that space. Now, how many leaders are willing to do that or thinking about that? You know, because they’ll only look at their educational credentials, la la la. And so it’s really opening up the doors and it and of course, it’s easy for me to say as an academic.

Ana (42:55.842)
thinking about that. know, because they only look at the educational credentials, so it’s really opening up the doors and of course, it’s easy for me to say yes, but when you’re a business person,

Marianne (43:09.954)
But when you’re a business person, I understand that. I’m consulting now, so I know the challenges of business people. But you have to see it as an asset. So talk in the language of assets. Culturally diverse people are assets to your organization, not liabilities. If you have someone who speaks two or three languages, actually one of my respondents in the agency told me about this.

Ana (43:13.056)
I understand that, I’m consulting now so I know the challenges of the obviously. But you have to see it as an asset. Talk in the language of assets. Culturally diverse people are assets to your organization, not by a business. If you have someone who speaks two or three languages, know, it actually one of my respondents in the agency told me about this. One of their most successful, and I won’t name the brand, I forgot anything, one of the most

Marianne (43:36.962)
one of their most successful, and I won’t name the brand, and I forgot anything, one of the most successful brands for a particular product, when they were brainstorming, came from a new migrant whose language, whose first language was not English. So he came up with this totally fresh idea about an Australian product, because he was so new to the environment. And it actually worked, and she said, and I said,

Ana (43:42.97)
successful brands for a particular product. The new brainstorm came from a new migrant whose language, his first language was not English. So he came up with this totally fresh idea about an Australian product because he was so new to the environment. And it actually worked. And I said, okay. So that is an example of when

Marianne (44:06.178)
Okay, so that is an example of when yeah, it you know, it’s Efficiency can only do you so much because when you do a cry when you have a crisis things are not Efficiency is not the main gig, right? You talk about Effectiveness and that’s when people then put the money when you’re fixing a crisis. So I know it’s really hard to Even

Ana (44:11.862)
Yeah, it’s efficient. Efficiency can only do you so much because when you have a crisis, efficiency is not the main thing, right? You talk about effectiveness and that’s when people then put the money when you’re fixing a crisis. So I know it’s really hard to sell.

Marianne (44:34.606)
getting resources for crisis preparedness because it’s too far ahead. We’ve had these conversations a lot in our classrooms as well. But if you have a leader who has foresight and who has the heart in the right place, the efficiency lever actually can be transformed into more effective and engagement.

Ana (44:35.138)
getting resources for crisis preparedness because it’s a long way

Ana (44:45.858)
you have a who has a sore side and who has a heart in the right place, the efficiency of the lever can be transformed into more effective and meaningful engagement with your participants. So I don’t know, maybe again, I am a bit idealistic, but if we don’t…

Marianne (45:03.764)
and meaningful engagement with your key stakeholders. So I don’t know, maybe again, I am a bit idealistic, but if we don’t challenge the current stereotype and the current practices, then it will be the same. Our industry will not grow and prosper in the future, especially in the kind of world we have now, which is really quite global and intercultural.

Ana (45:13.944)
challenge the current stereotype and the current practices, then it will be the same. Our industry will not grow.

Ana (45:24.792)
I’ll hold you there for a moment because we went into the organizations and who does the hiring and how it looks like. But we’ve also spoken about traditional ways of doing public relations. So we mentioned, you know, serving the organization and its financial objectives, demonstrating value.

And we spoke about the global capability framework, which is something new, right? We include cultural competence from the outset. So in a sense, what you’re advocating through your research is a different kind of PR, one that has impact and contributes to social change or social justice or social good, whatever you want to call that. We speak about social value in my research.

How do you think communicators can do that? I mean, we spoke about how you feel that we’re going backwards in acknowledging our cultural backgrounds, in speaking openly about these diverse experiences that we might have, or being curious about diverse experiences. So how can practitioners, how do you think, how can they…

I’m not sure I want to say balance because balance would mean that there’s an equilibrium. What sort of public relations do you see and what is the role of public relations practitioners in this future, in building this future?

Marianne (47:09.568)
Yeah, I’d like to see public relations practitioners become advocates, use advocacy more. Now, what would they advocate? That’s up to them. Okay, I would argue for, of course, at this in this kind of context at the moment, we argue for more peace. And so our communication, for example, when we’re working with clients, we have to rethink if what

Ana (47:36.898)
rethink if what they want is just clickbait or meaningful engagement. And this is why, you know, when we look at public relations merely from the perspective of technical competency and functional, you know, efficiency, these are very functionalist terms which

Marianne (47:38.722)
they want is just click bait or meaningful engagement. And this is why, you know, when we look at public relations merely from the perspective of technical competency and functional, you know, efficiency, these are very functionalist terms, which we have used for the longest time because that’s all we think, you know, like business, I understand business has metrics and we do need metrics.

Ana (47:59.928)
We have used for the longest time because that’s all we think. know, like business, I understand business has metrics and we do need metrics. But if we go, we have the metrics, okay, it’s part of the industry. We can’t get away from communication practitioners now. And what’s next? I mean, are we happy with where we are? That’s my question. Are we happy to do more for the world, for peace, for…

Marianne (48:08.28)
But if we go, we have the metrics, okay, it’s part of the industry, can’t get away from communication practitioners now. And what’s next? I mean, are we happy with where we are? That’s my question. Or are we happy to do more for the world, for peace? And to me, we have the skills, we have the knowledge, as I said, we have the capacity and the capability to do something beyond.

Ana (48:29.688)
And to me, we have the skills, have the knowledge, because I’m sure we have the capacity and the capability to do something beyond, for the good of society. Now, it doesn’t have to be for world peace, okay? You can just be in your own community. In the school that your children go to, the local council, the communication…

Marianne (48:38.086)
for good of society. Now, doesn’t have to be for world peace, okay? It can just be in your own community, in the school where your children go to, in the towns, local council. The communication… Okay, I’ll bring in my PhD research, okay? I found, when I interviewed communication practitioners then, I found that it was them, us.

Ana (48:55.448)
I’ll bring in my PhD research, okay? I found, when I interviewed communication practitioners then, I found that it was them, who was limiting ourselves to what we can do. So that’s what I call the agents of corporate control or something. And then…

Marianne (49:06.286)
who was limiting ourselves to what we can do. So that’s what I call the agents of corporate control, think something. then, so that is when we just want to work within the controlled and confined aspects of our role, right? Our role is to develop communication strategy, that’s it. The other one is about trying to engage

Ana (49:20.024)
So that is when we just want to work within the control and confined aspects of our role. Our role is to develop communication strategy, that’s it. The other one is about trying to engage people. But this is the one that I want to focus on. It’s what I call the agent of critical conscience. So it’s sort of like a variation of the corporate conscience.

Marianne (49:35.65)
people, but this is the one that I want to focus on is what I call the agent of critical conscience. So as, so it’s sort of like a variation of the corporate conscience role, right? That it’s not new. It’s, been in, in public relations literature. But the thing is we have to continually generate that need to be critical and for our, not only for our organizations, but for ourselves as individuals.

Ana (49:50.4)
It’s not new, it’s been in public relations literature. But the thing is we have to continually generate that need to be critical and for our, not only for our organizations, but for ourselves as individuals. So how do we do that? We develop questioning, inquiry, the notion of dialectical inquiry.

Marianne (50:05.622)
So how do we do that? We develop questioning, inquiry, the notion of dialectical inquiry. Ask questions all the time, why, why, why? And now we talk about purpose. What’s the purpose of any practice that we do? Because public relations can only, the practice of public relations will only be as good as its practitioners and the industry that it wants to become. If we want, if we’re happy with where we are,

Ana (50:14.196)
ask questions over time, why, why, And now we talk about purpose. What’s the purpose of any practice that we do? Because public relations can only, practice of public relations will only be as good as its practitioners in the industry that it wants to become. If we want, we’re happy with where we are, that’s it. Thank you very much. I’m earning my good day packet.

Marianne (50:35.138)
Well, that’s it. Thank you very much. I’m earning my good pay packet. What am I doing for the world? I don’t know. Some people do really well, but some, you know, I think there’s a lot more. That’s why we talked about social responsibility and now everyone poops, greenwashing. So anyone can actually say something, but let’s just, you know, keep fighting the fight if we can advocate for what we believe is right and good.

Ana (50:41.72)
What am I doing for the world? I don’t know. Some people do really well. I think there’s a lot more. That’s why we talked about social responsibility and now we are doing group music, greenwashing. So anyone can actually say something, but let’s just keep fighting the fight if we can advocate for what we believe is right and good.

Marianne (51:05.27)
in practice and also the notion of ethical practice. I think we always forget the ethical practice is really critical to the whole continuity of public relations as an industry, as a discipline. And that’s why between someone who goes to a new university, I would argue that’s the role of us academics as well, is to keep on harping about

Ana (51:05.695)
in practice and also the notion of ethical practice. think we always forget that ethical practice is really critical to the whole, to continue with your public relations as an industry, as a discipline. And that’s why between someone who goes to a university,

I would argue that the role of us academics as well is to keep on harping about technical practice. Because once you’re out in the industry, the question of ethics often is subjugated in terms of efficiency, you know, ROI.

Marianne (51:33.92)
ethical practice. Because once you’re out in the industry,

the question of ethics often is subjugated in terms of…

efficiency, know ROI and all the other terms that in the business sector. Not everyone’s like that. I know a lot of people have really good hearts but they’re constrained by certain things within the environment. So you know as I said I’m quite passionate about it but I am still idealistic public relations has more to provide.

Ana (51:57.884)
Okay, so we should strive for peace.

Marianne (52:18.56)
if we actually think about what we can do.

Ana (52:24.52)
and reflective thinking, dialectical inquiry as you said it. Marianne, that’s it for today. An hour almost flew by. Thank you for that. So remember, communicating across, within and between cultures. That is a must read. Thank you very, very much.

Marianne (52:28.268)
Yes, I like it.

Marianne (52:48.29)
Thank you.

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