In this episode of Women in PR, I speak with Jonah Burke, the Global Managing Director of AMEC, about the critical importance of measurement and evaluation in public relations. We discuss the challenges of navigating a male-dominated measurement field, the role of technology in shaping the future of PR, and the necessity of critical thinking in communication. Jonah shares her journey in PR, the significance of setting measurable objectives, and the importance of embracing failure as a learning opportunity. We conclude with the need for balance in professional life and the value of continuous learning.
For other episodes, check the Women in PR page or check out the category with the same name.
Key takeaways (AI generated with Riverside.fm)
- Measurement and evaluation are crucial for PR success.
- Critical thinking is essential for effective communication.
- Technology, including AI, will enhance PR measurement.
- Setting measurable objectives is the first step in PR measurement.
- Embracing failure is key to learning and growth.
- Diversity in reading expands understanding and perspective.
- Balance between confidence and humility is vital in PR.
- Continuous measurement is necessary for maintaining good relationships.
- Listening to stakeholders is as important as communicating with them.
- The future of PR relies on adapting to technological advancements.
Show transcript (AI generated with Riverside.fm)
Ana Adi (00:03.756)
This is Women in PR, a weekly podcast about inspiring women that have embraced PR and made it shine, changing it for the better every day. It’s about mentors, founders, researchers, role models, leaders. I am Ana Adi. Women in PR is brought to you by Quadriga University of Applied Sciences in Berlin and professionalpodcasts.com.
Ana Adi (00:35.032)
Are you still using AVs, advertising value equivalent to report your PR success? That’s bad. That’s really bad if you do. There are ways in which public relations contribution to the organizational success can be assessed, but that requires long-term measurement and evaluation. AI and machine learning can help here with the day-to-day numbers.
But the overall picture and the responsibility of tracking and reporting that stays with PR, which is why critical thinking and solid research skills are the solutions. So here it is, measurement and evaluation. Our topic this week. Our guest, Jonah Burke, the Global Managing Director of AMEC, the International Association for Measurement and Evaluation of Communication. An American that carries always a book in her bag,
Jonah chose PR because it was fun. Now, more than 25 years later, she’s often traveling to remind practitioners that fun and measurement and evaluation do go together. So Jonah, thank you so very much for making time for me today. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Anna. It’s such a pleasure to be here and to be here for the beginning of your journey as a podcaster.
It’s quite fantastic. Who would have thought when we’ve met some time ago that I’ll be hosting you on a podcast. Let me start with a question that we usually start with every professional that we’ve welcomed on the show before. Why PR? What brought you into public relations? So that’s a great question.
It’s an interesting journey from my perspective. I was a young communicator working as a technical writer, working on very fascinating items like safety manuals of all things. And because we worked with the loss prevention department, I had worked on some legal cases, which then tied me into some of the PR and communications efforts.
Ana Adi (02:55.11)
is somewhat by accident, but an interesting path and progression. And I think this is definitely a much better fit than mulling over as safety guides for 30 years. But you said you ended up in PR somewhat by accident. What does somewhat mean?
Ana Adi (03:22.658)
Well, you know, that wasn’t, wasn’t, I didn’t have PR on my radar really. It was about, you know, writing and communications and much more so for an internal audience than for an external audience. And I was very young and, you know, maybe lacking some confidence of what that external presence and capability might be like. And so,
working inside of an organization. I was working with peers and friends and it was a very safe environment. And so to step out into a much more public arena of a Fortune 500 company was somewhat intimidating, but it was a path I’m very happy to have taken now. So tell me a little more. So for someone who is listening to the podcast and might not have the time to stalk you proper online,
Just give me and give us a little bit of a short resume. You said Fortune 500. Before that, you talked about safety manuals and all that, a little by accident. Now this sounds like a novel that hasn’t yet been written.
Well, you know, I guess I’ll do that in my next life. I’m quite busy now to write a novel, but no. So I started out in communications and then ended up going into PR for a Fortune 500. I eventually became the PR and the IR director. So navigating, you know, all that goes into crisis communications, standard public relations, community relations. It was an amazing opportunity.
And from that, I actually went to the service side. I was so fascinated with how the tools and the mechanisms work that I thought if I was on the inside of an organization, I could help communicators on a broader scale be more effective. It was really my aspirational goal. And consequently, I spent 18 years at Burrell’s Luce trying to
Ana Adi (05:45.254)
drive that mission and making tools and resources more effective, more accessible. And I think in that process, definitely helping a lot of teams be more effective by giving them access to better and broader information and giving them actionable tools. And it’s a little over a year now since I took on the role at Amec and
And this was after I had served as the North American chair. I am a fellow of them. So I a long history with the association. And when my predecessor decided to move on, they had a call for applicants. I was one of, I think, people that applied for the position. And at the end of the process, very fortunate that the board decided to take a chance on
you know, very nice American woman to head a UK-based trade association. Which is very interesting. So you mentioned already your fascination and your dedication over the past 18, 20 years to making comms more effective. Maybe allow me to make a comment, but to me, measurement…
fields still very much as a male dominated branch of comms. So it’s not necessarily PR related, it goes beyond what we perceive to be PR. But I find it to be very male dominated and very provider dominated. So how do you find that world? How do you navigate that world? Particularly, that you describe yourself, you know, as an American, as a woman.
coming into something that has been very, or you’ve said it, very British in a sense, on part of his membership and I assume the way it’s been managed and worked in the past. So I think it’s an interesting journey and assessment. And I think that while PR is so female dominated still, that it makes
Ana Adi (08:06.388)
measurement seem very male dominated, even though I believe that there is more of a balance there. I I still think the majority of the leaders, definitely of the CEOs that we see are males, but I think in the industry, we’re definitely seeing an increase in women and rising to the top in leadership roles within their organization with the management and measurement eye towards success.
I think it is balancing out. It’s just, think in contrast to communications and especially in PR where we see a lot of our counterparts that’s so female driven coming to the side of the business and seeing such a proliferation of men, it makes it seem more male dominant. So I think the balance there is just that
really smart people are driving initiatives and agendas. And one of the things that excites me to no end is when I see a lot of these CEOs, and I think we are seeing more female CEOs within communications and within PR agencies talking about the importance of measurement. So I definitely see the drive towards that balance.
and that diversity in all of those elements more so in measurement than I do in the general comms population. But why is measurement so important? Let me play the devil’s advocate and ask the question, why is measurement so important to comms? It’s critical because if we don’t measure and evaluate what we’re doing in communications,
then that’s where the breakdown occurs, right? And if we aren’t looking and being and looking very closely at what’s being effective, it’s where the train gets derailed, right? It’s where we have kind of the breakdown of communication in. And I like to say that every good and bad relationship I’ve ever had, I can track back to the communication. And I think the communications industry is no different except at the macro level.
Ana Adi (10:27.882)
And so if you aren’t looking very closely at how you’re communicating with your stakeholders and your constituents, then it’s very easy to lose touch, to lose track, and then lose that footing. And that’s critical for organizations to stay very close to their market, to stay very close to their constituents so that those nuances, so that those trends, so that those shifts in ideals and beliefs, that they are
there to be relevant and to partner with their stakeholders to make it an important part. there, whether it’s a brand, whether it’s a mission, whether it’s an organization, you know, the audience is the most important key and communications with that audience is really critical in being effective. And if they aren’t measuring and analyzing that throughout that journey, it’s very easy for those good relationships to go bad quickly.
Let me repeat that because I think it’s such a great point you’re making. So it’s the evaluation of the audience throughout the journey, which makes measurement a continuous thing rather than what I tend to call a hiccup, a campaign, something that has a beginning and an end and it finishes there.
Now this brings me to my mind, brings to my mind a little of a different question that has more to do with moving forward with the future of public relations. I’m sure that in your quality at AAMIC, you’ve seen a lot of discussion about technology and PR and how it’s going to shape the future of the profession.
And a lot of that discussion out there is about tools, is about the tools out there, including all sorts of forms of artificial intelligence, so machine learning really, are going to enhance the communicator’s job. What are your thoughts on that? How is measurement of cons going to look into the future? How is PR going to be in the future if we’ll have all this measurement around us?
Ana Adi (12:52.408)
Well, I think that’s a great question. And I think, you know, when we think about it like a relationship, I think it’s important to think of any relationship that you’re in. If you were only to talk at someone and to never stop and listen to them, then what relationship do you have, right? You’re a megaphone, not a partner. And so it’s kind of important that if you’ve sat for a while and you haven’t really stopped
to listen to your stakeholders through surveys, through any type of feedback mechanisms that you can activate, then you’re probably a bad partner and you need to kind of stop and check yourself. And that’s really what measurement is. It’s looking at that on an ongoing basis. Now there’s a lot of great and exciting things that are going on with technology and it’s sexy. I mean, when you go to these conferences and people are talking about AI and machine learning and it’s,
all of these nuances of your job is going to be so much easier. Parts of it will absolutely be easier because machine learning and AI right now is really good at the counts and amounts. It’s really good at the stuff that frankly, humans don’t like anyways. That quantitative element.
show me the person who likes to sit in the corner and count things and there’s probably a person I have not spent a lot of time with, right? Nor has anyone else. And so that’s part of the exciting thing about technology. And one of the elements that people need to, I think, stay in touch with and not lose track of is that even with some of these, know, charting and reporting options that people see and they have exposure to,
If those don’t tell a story that’s relevant to your stakeholders, to the C-suite, to anyone else in your organization and how you’re trying to ladder up within those overarching goals, then it just doesn’t matter. And it’s just like listening to music while you’re cooking. It gives you something to do, but it doesn’t make the meal any better. And I think if we look at that,
Ana Adi (15:05.344)
and take that as a seasoning, take those elements as a seasoning of what we’re doing in communicating, it gives us time to pause and reflect and think about that even through technology, critical thinking is the most critical tool that a communicator has. And that is to be able to take and look at the information, look at the data that you’re presented,
consider and contemplate all of those external factors. What else is going on in the ecosystem? What other drivers internally might be affecting some of these nuances? And then use your communication tactics and your toolkit of how to accelerate those messages that are working effectively. How to stop, pivot and repost to those messages that aren’t working effectively. And so when you’re using analysis along the way of everything that you’re doing,
you’re enhancing and you’re able to be very nimble and very smart about what you’re doing. And critical thinking is the most important asset to any communicator. know, the more they just take data and pass it on, they become the middle man, which is very easily replaced, right? But taking that information, applying that level of insight, partnering with someone to apply that level of insight into what you’re seeing and how some of those external factors are.
That’s where you really become a master of the craft and you become indispensable to your organization. Now, how do we teach critical thinking? How, in a sense, do you have maybe a story that’s your fable, almost like your creation story? Here’s how I discovered critical thinking and it has saved me ever since.
I wish I had the saved me ever since I am very much a work in progress and embrace my flaws to be able to try to always be working towards a better self. But I think it’s you teach that in everyday life, you know, now we are looking at so many situations and I regretfully use politics as a, as a case study because it’s.
Ana Adi (17:30.318)
It’s so vivid for everyone, right? Everyone has those very strong feelings, but the more we isolate ourselves and insulate ourselves to only the ways that we think or see something, it’s very dangerous, right? So I would contend that the same applies in all of our work, right? In our daily life, in our professional career, that we have to be looking at
not only the opinions that we like and that we agree with, but what are those conflicting opinions? What is the source of that? Where does that come from? Is there, is it a bias? Is it rhetoric? Is it something that is fact-based, you know? And I think then trying to piece together what that means and usually realizing that the old saying, there’s he said, she said, and somewhere in the middle lies the truth.
is the truth for a reason, right? Because there are always external factors and nothing is always right or always wrong. And within our own lives, we have to be cautious about what we’re putting into our mind, right? How we’re feeding ourselves information, are we feeding good information, but also always questioning everything. And
and really looking at dissecting how opinions are formed and how someone could get to some conclusion and having respect and deference for that. And that will normally either strengthen your position, your thinking, your belief system, or it will help give you some empathy, some consideration of that person’s life experiences.
and how that can potentially change and modify your own thinking. I think critical thinking is the heart to that. And it’s absolutely vital in having a civil discourse in society and in creative thinking and value and purpose that we can bring to communications. I mean, I’m very fortunate that I have a position now that is my passion.
Ana Adi (19:50.026)
incredibly fortunate and blessed to be able to have that. And I give thanks for that every day because it’s something that I know a lot of my peers don’t have and it’s a struggle. And the more it’s a struggle, I think the more we have to strike that balance within our thinking, our exposure and our network to make us our best selves. Now, you know, I’ve started, look, I babble, I have so many things to think of.
I was just thinking as you were talking about critical thinking and the communicator trying to build up a better world, becoming in a sense a connector between disconnected parts of the world. I thought of how paradoxical that is when we talk about measurement, because measurement to a degree is defined as an evaluation, sort of an input output.
And here you are talking about a communicator in a sense seeing where the flaws are and intervening in a way of enabling debate at societal level. And I think that’s what politics is your example because at societal level is a different thing than having an organization who wants to shift the product or an organization who
you know, is in dire need of hiring people. It’s beyond that. It’s about making the world work. So I’m sorry, I’m just thinking out loud, but how do we mitigate in that case if we want communicators to be these promoters of society, of an open society? How do we balance then our claim that we can measure things and we can make them better? Well, it is only through measurement that we get more balance.
Right? It is only through understanding the influencers, the data, the external factors in all of their good, bad, and ugly that communicators can then tell a story to be able to share what their experience is. So some of, some of the listeners of, the podcast are from all over the world. So, let’s assume,
Ana Adi (22:12.318)
that maybe measurement is not that popular where they are. I don’t mean any offense. My question here is, I really don’t. But if someone would come and say, look, I want to do measurement better. Where should I start? It might be an uphill battle.
People might still think that PR is, I don’t know, about wonderful mentions in the media. What is your advice? How do you start on a good measurement path, particularly as you said that critical thinking is one of these keys to good measurement? You absolutely have to start with a measurable objective.
If you don’t start with a clear and measurable objective to something that is meaningful within the organization, then it’s almost impossible to have that feeling of success and to be successful. And that’s probably the biggest challenge that we see globally, even in markets who are very mature, as far as measurement and analysis goes, there is still a gap in some of those programs for solid planning.
and for set goals and objectives that they are measuring against throughout a campaign initiative and effort that they’re trying to do. And that’s why so many times, you know, one of the most common questions that I get is, what are the most important metrics for a good measurement program? And there you go, I’m asking that. There was the silver bullet answer, but since there is no universal goal or objective,
there is no universal metric that can be applied, right? So I think understanding your organization, understanding the objective that you are supporting is the most important piece. And once you have that, then we can talk about the metrics that feed in and can demonstrate effectiveness, can help identify trends, can show you.
Ana Adi (24:28.022)
in a faster mechanism what’s working, what’s not working. If there was some universal answer, this would be a very boring short discussion, right? Because it’s like, of course it is take X and Y, they equal Z off to the races. But that’s not the case. so, especially with that communications more so, internal communications and public relations, more so I think than marketing and advertising in many respects.
It’s a longer tail goal that we’re working against, right? We’re talking about reputation. We’re talking about improving stock value. We’re talking about those things that have a lot of levers on the dashboard that require maintenance and ongoing observation in order to be effective. And so it isn’t just a click getting someone into a funnel, but it is definitely a different nurturing process that is so critical.
in building and developing what that metric might look like for your organization? So interesting that you call it the nurturing process. particularly when you talk to reputation, which I usually say reputation is like beauty, as in the eye of the beholder. Then definitely reputation is something that needs to be nurtured. It’s nothing that is
just their poof magic, you know, just appeared. So very, I will keep that and take it into my lectures if I may. Absolutely. Let me take you on a different sort of subject and path because now that you are with Aomek, you travel a lot.
I mean, you and I have met in Lisbon a couple of weeks ago and just looking at your Twitter and LinkedIn account, I lost track in how many parts of the world you’ve been since. So how do you strike balance in your life between this convincing the world that measurements is a good thing and it is a very good thing, but
Ana Adi (26:47.118)
but also maintaining your, yeah, I think balance is the best word, right? I don’t want to go and use any other. How do you find that? That’s a fair question. When you take on a role of a global trade association, then it’s important to have your head straight when you do it, I think. I like to think that I did and having purpose and passion as drivers is key to that.
but it would be almost impossible without having true inner balance. And that’s really achievable through meditation and through, you know, even amidst all of the events and the presentations and the webinars and podcasts to, you know, have that quiet reflective time and to really allow
those quiet moments to absorb in so that I’m true to what I talk about. And that is thinking critically. When I go to South America and I see some of the different challenges that they face in that region, being able to quietly reflect on how that works in the larger scheme is only possible
through intention and through being very mindful about what that looks like in a larger ecosystem and then how as an organization like Amec, we can support some of those initiatives through a better understanding of what that might look like for them. So how do you do that? Because I mean,
It is very personal and I’ve been around measurement debates and discussions for a while myself, but I feel people are very invested in these discussions and the stakes are very, very high. So from an energy level, they can be very, very consuming. So how do you…
Ana Adi (28:58.164)
I don’t know, how do you transmit that sort of balance and encouragement and support to other practitioners to continue to fight this fight, which, you know, it is a good fight. It’s very much about ensuring legitimacy and continuity of the profession and of the work. Well, don’t get me wrong. Some days it’s easier than others. Some days I’m a lot better at it than others. But it is
really about the belief in what you do. And again, trying to be a good communicator in my own right to listen and understand so that when you’re hearing what their challenge is, it isn’t some ready-made answer, but it is being reflective back to them of, I’ve heard you, and here are some examples of success and or failure.
that I’ve heard from other parts of your region, other parts of the world and how this might help them. And I raised the topic of failure because I think in general, that’s one of the biggest gaps that communicators have. they are, when they look at their charts and reports, sometimes they’re irrational. I will use not intending any offense, but.
irrational of, know, this chart shouldn’t look like this and this line going up and not down. And you’re like, well, that would be ideal. However, living in the real world, we aren’t always dealing with the ideal. And I think it it speaks to having confidence in failure, but being able to understand the failure. Right. Some of I mean, most all of us work for and have worked with people who are incredibly motivated.
and very successful. And those people have not become successful because they have only had success. They’ve learned from failure. And as a result, they have great respect and show deference to those who fail but learn from that failure. So if you have a campaign or a program that doesn’t, you know, succeed like you had hoped, but you know and understand why and your roadmap for the future,
Ana Adi (31:18.51)
takes into account those considerations so that you don’t fail again, that is incredibly empowering and it’s bonding for communications and leadership because they know that you are invested into it, right? They know that you are thinking about those external factors and not just putting a comms plan together, but thinking about, okay, we missed the mark, which is unfortunate, but we know why we missed it now. There were these elements that we couldn’t control.
these that we could but didn’t anticipate, here’s how we’re going to do better the next time. And to be very passionate about your data too, but also knowing when to agree that you don’t have the best data, the best information for whatever reason is important as well. I think finding that balance between confidence and humble.
is a bit of a magic trick, but I think I haven’t met a single communicator that I respect who doesn’t possess that capability in spades to be able to be incredibly effective and influential internally and externally. And that’s a real motivator in this industry is we have a lot of really smart, talented people who can take.
very complex algorithms and metrics and break those down to something very simple, but very clear to an organization, to a team that drives and motivates them. It’s a beautiful thing. So before we wrap up and say goodbye and let’s meet again, if you were to go back and meet with your much younger self,
at the beginning of your journey into PR and measurement, what would you tell yourself? there are many things I would tell a young Jonna. But, you know, I mean, I guess in living a full life, which I believe that I do, and I try to live it very fully every day, it means
Ana Adi (33:39.754)
not having any regrets and so being very pragmatic and understanding that to change one thing in my life could potentially change so many other things. I would tell young Jonna to live every day to its fullest and to embrace your mistakes and always learn from them and trust people who earn your trust and learn to be
really good purveyor of information and question everything before making a final decision that you would, you know, put yours or someone else’s life in the hands with as a result. But to be your best you, you need to communicate and all of the facets that that includes is, you know, reading a lot. I do like to read, so I am a voracious reader and to
to stay true to those roots that I’ve had ever since I was a small child. Well, that’s a lot more than just one thing, as you say. But there is, mean, you know, what I take from our conversation today is this theme in a sense that seems to be your life theme of embracing failure that permeates from personal to professional.
and to driving in the sense of profession, right? I mean, you talk about measurement, but measurement without seeing failure and seeing where the course of correction is, isn’t quite measurement, right? It’s measurement in the sense that- It’s reporting and there’s a difference. Then measurement and evaluation as we were talking about, it’s something longitudinal, looks therefore at
a lot more parameters over a longer period of time across a variety of projects and initiatives, which is, you know, needs to account for failure as well. One of the other things I do take from our conversation today is the importance of critical thinking and that personally, I mean, you’ve spoken about this balance between confidence and being humble, but
Ana Adi (36:04.576)
also being passionate about work, but most importantly is about nurturing that curiosity and ability about what we see and what we experience, either personally or professionally. you know, we go back to a lot of the things that probably we were told as kids and we’re going to tell our kids and whatever other kids that will be around us, which is to read a lot. So instead of goodbye, what is the book?
that you would recommend to anyone who would just take you up and say, Jonah, what’s your book? What’s your favorite book? that’s like asking a mother her favorite child. that seems almost impossible. And, know, I can honestly say I don’t I don’t have a favorite book. But I am very intrigued by new authors.
And, you know, I think there’s, it’s kind of easy to, and I say this with all due respect, it’s easy to follow Seth Godin and Guy Kiyosaki and some of these people who are leaders in communications. I think it’s some of these new storytellers that are so interesting because it not only gives you a sense of their thinking.
on issues that might be different to your own because they’ve had different social experiences, but that it gives you that next generation of problem solving and how they attack problems or theories even in their books. So I guess I would, I don’t, can’t answer that question simply, but I would say always find a diversity of books, right? If you’re only reading about one topic, then you’re
insulating yourself to all of the understanding that you might be gaining from another whole half of the market that’s so important. Okay, you’ve wiggled your way out of that. You’ll usually always find me with a book in my bag. it’s, you know, like I say, it’s just, very difficult to. So go on and go through your bag and tell me what’s in your bag right now.
Ana Adi (38:27.618)
So I will, okay, fair enough. The book that I just read is The Storytelling Edge. And I should know their names. it’s essentially a marketing story about how to transform businesses through storytelling. And it’s…
It’s a good book. You know, it’s a solid foundation of the importance of storytelling, of building the arc of, you know, in a good story. And I mean, it was a good book. I I just, read a lot of books and I read, you know, a lot of biographies. I I find people very interesting. So, you know, I’ll usually shift and study there. So, I mean, it’s, I’m not trying to wiggle off of it. I really, if I had some,
you know, go to that I read every year, would happily share with you and your audience. I think there’s, you know, I like to say that if I won the lottery, people say, you would be so bored. I said, no, there’s a whole library of books that I haven’t read yet and I would be quite satisfied. So the one that you mentioned, think it’s called the storytelling edge. How to transform your business. Stop screaming into the void and make people love you by Shaden Snow, Joe Lazauskas.
Yes, that is that I think one that’s the one great And I also leave books with people so usually that’s part of the disadvantage to is after I’ve read it I will pass it on so Very nice next time you and I meet I will rummage gladly through your bag. I Look forward to it and I look forward to it Jonah. Thank you so so very much for making time for me today
It was an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for spending the time and until we meet again, I will look forward to following your progress and hearing about how your students were doing in their journeys as well. Thank you so much. Thank you, Anna.
Ana Adi (40:44.274)
And that’s another episode of Women in PR over. Remember, critical thinking and research skills are the key to good measurement and evaluation. and good objectives and KPIs. Next time, we go to Romania. We’ll be meeting the powerful duo of Elisa Rogalski and Alina Damaskin, partners in one of Romania’s most successful independent PR agencies, Rogalski and Damaskin. We’ll talk about leadership, sisterhood,
and about how values guide and influence business decisions. Do join me. Women in PR is brought to you by Quadriga University of Applied Sciences in Berlin and professionalpodcast.com. To learn more about the show and my guests, do check out the show notes. And if you liked it, by all means share it. If you have comments and suggestions, find me on Twitter and LinkedIn.
My biggest thanks go to Miguel Fecke and Regina Carana, my team at ProfessionalPodcast.com. Without them, this podcast wouldn’t be here now. I am Ana Adi. Thank you for listening.