In this conversation of the Women in PR series, Katie shares her journey into public relations, discussing her experiences with gender inequality and the importance of diversity in the field. She highlights her research on the intersectionality of gender and race in PR, the challenges faced by women, and the need for organizations to support diverse voices. The discussion also touches on generational differences, the role of affinity groups, and the importance of ethical listening in navigating polarization in communication. Katie emphasizes the need for future PR practitioners to be aware of these issues and to advocate for change in the industry.
Key takeaways (AI generated)
- Katie’s journey into PR began with a passion for communication.
- She experienced gender pay disparity early in her career.
- Research shows women in PR often face a ‘velvet ghetto’ experience.
- Intersectionality is crucial in understanding women’s experiences in PR.
- Generational differences impact women’s opportunities in the workplace.
- Organizations need to enact real support for women in PR.
- Affinity groups can empower but also risk marginalization.
- Listening with empathy is essential in communication.
- Teaching ethics and critical thinking is vital for future PR practitioners.
- Research on why individuals leave the industry is needed.
Transcript (AI generated)
Ana (00:04.489)
Katie, it’s so wonderful to have you on the show. Welcome to the show.
Katie (00:05.698)
Wonderful.
Katie (00:09.282)
Thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled to be here.
Ana (00:13.941)
One of the questions that I ask everybody when they come on the show is how on earth did they end up in public relations? They’re really interesting stories to hear and I’m very curious to hear yours.
Katie (00:27.998)
I always knew in my heart that I wanted to communicate on behalf of an organization. And the funny story is, is that I was told to go to the business school. And when I was in the business school doing my accounting classes and management classes, I realized, yes, I wanted to do something on behalf of a business, I wanted it to be more focused on communication. So it wasn’t until halfway throughout my
college career that I discovered the communications field and the communications major. And once I got into those public relations courses where I was really able to hone in on my passions of writing and listening and speaking and communicating that I was right at home and the rest is history. I have loved public relations ever since.
Ana (01:20.681)
But you were not true to one particular area in public relations. Often what we’ve learned from previous guests on the show is that they tend to find an industry or a particular area of practice that they fall in love with and they stay with that or they grow around that. Whereas with you, that was not quite the case, was it?
Katie (01:45.43)
Not at all. I got my start in the Washington DC area in public affairs and took on some work that involved corporate clients and a lot of voter education and legislative education work. And I quickly realized that was not for me. I loved the agency and I actually loved the work, but I wanted an opportunity to do more.
a diverse work with regard to public relations. So I hopped over to a not -for -profit and served as the communications manager over there and was really in love with all of the diversity of writing and engagement work that I got to do that I guess more truly reflected upon what I had learned. But there’s more. There’s also some stories about how I hop ship. And I think it was with regard to some
Ana (02:37.992)
stories about it.
and I think it would.
Katie (02:43.552)
inequalities and power -based elements that I witnessed in the agency world and the public affairs world too.
Ana (02:52.265)
Tell me a little bit more about those inequalities. They have to do with lunch discoveries, don’t they?
Katie (02:52.728)
Tell me a lot of
Katie (02:59.352)
They do. so, which I think really lends itself to a very interesting discussion on women in PR later in this podcast is I was out to lunch with my colleague and we were hired the same summer and we both had a master’s degree, but we breached the very taboo subject of salary and I discovered that my colleague was hired outright at $8 ,000 more than me.
And I was, being a very young professional at the time, really shocked. How could my male colleague be hired at so much more than me when I thought I was going to bring the same amount of professionalism and expertise to the role. And, you know, reflecting on that, I know that we were hired to work for different accounts, but they were both clients that were corporate accounts, large corporate accounts. And we both had master’s degree. So again, I was shocked and
It really led me to, once I went to my public relations PhD program, to elect this as a major course of study. I wanted to really understand gender differences in public relations, you know, all the gender notions of work and, as Elizabeth Toath calls it, the pink -collared professions, and she did that really initial work.
kind of establishing public relations as the velvet ghetto. And after kind of witnessing some of those elements, I wanted to study that more and get down to the bottom of it.
Ana (04:39.153)
Okay, so tell me a little bit more about your research. I know this is taking you down memory lane quite a bit, but you started with this assumption, as you said, that Elizabeth Toth made, that being a woman working in public relations means that you will have a completely different experience at your male counterparts and that expectations of you as a practitioner will be different.
What did you find out?
Katie (05:11.842)
So definitely through my own work experiences and then my research, it was interesting to see how I may have, before I even understood what it meant as a young pro, lived that kind of velvet ghetto experience where, you know, you are a woman being brought into an agency environment or the public relations workforce, and you were expected to maybe exhibit a very limited
segment of your skill set such as writing and or the role itself has been envisioned as something that’s more feminine or more fluffy or less managerial and therefore you are paid less. so just throughout my research and this was my very earliest research interest, my dissertation focused on women and power and public relations and
Ana (05:40.425)
segment of your skill sets, which is writing and or…
envisioned as something that
Ana (05:53.667)
you
Ana (05:58.707)
just throughout my research. And this was my very earliest research interest in my dissertation.
Katie (06:08.908)
all of those differences. And I found that, you know, there very much is a difference. And what I think is really interesting is among the women that I spoke with, and this is years ago now, there was a sense of maybe a complacency or a lack of understanding of these elements. Not everybody has access to the velvet ghetto. Not everybody has access to a lot of the research that we do as scholars. So I think there’s still a…
Ana (06:11.633)
And I found that, you know, there very much is a difference. And what I think is really interesting is among
years ago now. There was a sense of media.
Ana (06:32.751)
to develop a ghetto.
Katie (06:38.264)
a lack of understanding of the pay disparities, the lack of maybe appropriate support for work -life fit. I think now that we’re in 2024, there is more awareness, but organizations have so much more to do still with regard to establishing real policy, structural changes, cultural changes.
that support women in the PR industry, especially women who have been marginalized, especially women of color, queer women, that we haven’t really done enough, I believe, to understand those work experiences and enact real change in public relations.
Ana (07:19.591)
Now, you’ve mentioned loads of categories there of women, which points you to us to this very fancy academic term of intersectionality, right? That it’s a combination of race and gender or anything else, basically, that would go into one’s experience that potentially impact career progression and visibility. You
Also published, think it’s 2020, a study on diversity of PR called a Lily White field. Can you tell me a little bit more about your findings there? Why Lily White? And does that have anything to do with this intersectionality that we spoke of?
Katie (08:09.484)
Yes, this is again just been such a fantastic area of research and I encourage all individuals studying PR now to delve into this. And I want to give a shout out to a co -author Jennifer Vardeman who embarked on quite a bit of this research with me too. And it was commissioned by the Lillian Lodge Copenhaver Center to really get down to what are some of the issues right now facing women in PR.
Ana (08:29.339)
Commission.
Katie (08:37.792)
And so looping back to intersectionality though, which has been central to most of my research, it’s, you know, as we know this term coined originally by Kimberlé Crenshaw and quite a few other scholars leaning this understanding of marginalization and oppression in the world. But it really helps us understand that our diverse and overlapping lived experiences, facets of
Ana (08:44.571)
It’s, as we know, this term coined originally by Kimberly Crenshaw and quite a few other scholars, believing this understanding of marginalization and oppression.
It really helps us understand that our diverse and overlapping lived experiences, facets of identity, whether it’s race or ethnicity.
Katie (09:05.834)
identity, whether it’s race, ethnicity, class, educational level, and on and on and on. They shape our experiences with marginalization and oppression and power. And that in turn shapes our experiences with power and hiring and work and on and on and on in our own public relations industry. And so much work still needs to be done with, for example,
Ana (09:13.427)
They shape our experiences with our children.
Ana (09:22.384)
since.
Ana (09:32.617)
So much work still needs to be done with, for example, understanding why particularly we are not seeing women of color in the public relations industry. And I know that there were accounts even…
Katie (09:36.724)
understanding why particularly we are not seeing women of color in the public relations industry. And I know that there were accounts even from when I was doing my research a decade plus ago of, you know, women being flat out told, well, you’re young and you are black. You are not going to be working on this particular account over here. It’s reserved for other individuals in the profession. And so it’s really interesting how, I guess,
Ana (09:53.266)
Thanks.
Ana (10:03.04)
and the professionals and so it’s really interesting how I in tragic
Katie (10:08.312)
and tragic how work has been assigned particular values or particular skill sets or even particular identity facets for individuals in the industry to take on. And you you and I were just chit chatting before the podcast about the TV show, Emily in Paris and you know how there is particularly maybe some.
Ana (10:13.288)
been assigned particular values or particular skill sets or have particular identity facets for individuals in the industry to take on. You you and I were just chit chatting before the podcast.
Katie (10:34.73)
assumptions of which identity facets are most suitable for covering luxury brands or particular brands. So I think that TV shoe kind of maybe even embellishes some of these tropes or these misunderstandings of the public relations industry. And ultimately, we need to diversify the field. It is indeed still a lily white field of women. are
Ana (10:51.066)
misunderstandings of the public.
Katie (11:02.552)
70 % women, just about. The lack of diversity, definitely ethnic and racial diversity in the public relations field is unacceptable. And we really need to do so much more to improve that diversity, improve inclusion, and so much work needs to be done.
Ana (11:16.008)
some people.
Ana (11:27.113)
I’ll try to put this a little bit in context. In the United States, it’s about 60 % or over of the workforce that is supposed to be female. And that is reflected to similar levels within Europe. Now, having said that, within Europe, that’s an average of averages. Finland and Sweden, for instance, have up to 90 % of the PR practitioners being women.
Whereas there are other countries in the south of Europe that have far, far less. But still, there’s this idea, right? And in a sense, the assumption that if you have more than a half of practitioners being of one kind, in this case we discuss of one gender, we also would expect that rising through the ranks and distribution of the type of accounts, right? Brands, you said, would be…
would be fairly equal, whereas historically we had industries that were gendered, right? As you’ve mentioned, Emily, in Paris, you have women being assigned to beauty and fashion brands, to softer sort of industries, and there is still over -representation of male practitioners, for instance, into harder industries. I don’t know, let’s think, I don’t know, insurance or…
Katie (12:52.012)
Mm
Ana (12:54.201)
engineering, whatever of that would be. And this, you’re saying, goes back to the assumptions that we make as societies about what the roles of women are and what are characteristics that would be specific to one gender or another and therefore the jobs that people do. Now, one of the things that I don’t think we speak enough of, and I’m really curious to see what you think about that.
Because when we speak of intersectionality, so often focus either on gender or on ethnicity. In the United States, I think it’s more of a focus on race than it is in Europe. But what we do not focus on are generational differences or age differences. How do you think these generational differences or age affects women’s experience and their opportunities?
Katie (13:52.076)
Yes, I really do agree that there’s not enough research done on age and the positive or the negative impacts of that in terms of positive, I think really the wisdom and the expertise of women in the industry who have fought for so much and who have remained and who have the opportunity and do lift other women up.
And I think those stories have yet to be heard and captured. Some of these groundbreaking women, women who broke the glass ceiling, women who broke the lavender ceiling, we haven’t heard these stories enough. But I also want to speak to, think, some, again, remaining tropes, remaining stereotypes that may still occur that maybe we need to continue to explore.
I know when I was interviewing my women in public relations, a lot of it was very difficult when, you know, women come into the industry and they are young and maybe they don’t have a family, they don’t have children. And then when they hit that, some women who are experiencing that, organizations have not yet stepped up to offer the appropriate amount of support.
Ana (15:05.416)
than when they hit that and some women.
Organizations have not yet stepped up to…
Katie (15:17.976)
in that regard, which then results in stories of women sneaking out the back door at 5 p to go pick up a child from childcare. But I think there’s such a diversity of women’s lived experiences, women who have children, women who don’t, women who are young, women who have just are more seasoned professionals who have so much to share. I think we need to do more research to understand these experiences.
Ana (15:20.791)
which then results in stories of women sneaking out the back door.
Ana (15:30.505)
It’s such a diversity of…
Ana (15:38.926)
or sports season professionals who have so much to share.
Katie (15:45.832)
and compare and contrast and see what we can learn to make the public relations field a more accepting, a more diverse, and more inclusive space.
Ana (15:58.779)
I’m trying to find out something because there’s been research from global women in PR coming up in Europe in particular about the post pandemic experience of women. And I think one of the scariest results of that is that post pandemic, particularly mothers, women who had children,
indicated that they felt that colleagues doubted, I think 20 % of that, doubted their career commitment after returning from maternity leave. And other responsibilities like career advancement and entry into leadership were linked with family obligations. I mean, in this similar report that was published in 2021,
60 % of the women with children reported experiencing negative workplace attitudes during pregnancy, and then 20 % of them having been reported to be doubted, know, seriosity, know, earnestness to stay and to work. Now, you say we need to do more research about that. I fully agree.
On the other hand, you also suggested when we started our conversation that there might be some ways that you might have some ideas for how organizations can support women. What do you think? What is it that organizations can do, PR agencies, PR departments, and the organizations hiring them can do to be more supportive of women at any stage in their life?
Katie (17:53.632)
I really think it has to be multiple areas of attack here. I was going to say twofold, but I think it’s multiple fold. So one, we need more hiring initiatives to ensure we’re tackling the lack of diversity in the profession and hiring a diverse slate of women to the profession. But then the profession has to enact on everything we’ve been asking for decades and decades.
Ana (18:10.822)
Mm
Katie (18:22.456)
I think the workforce, whether it’s corporate, not -for -profit or agency, has to really finally enact policy change, structural change, and even kind of a cultural shift to allow for any diverse notion of women’s work and women’s identities to thrive in the workplace. And whether that is a shift to what constitutes
professional work are really allowing for this flexibility to really speak true to all of the work -life fit research we have been doing. Shout out to Bailey Shaw and all these colleagues out there who are doing this amazing research. One thing I also am intrigued in, and I would love to do more research myself, through my listening research, organizational listening research, I found that
Organizational employee resource groups or sometimes they’re called affinity groups are a way for women or minorities in the profession to gain more power and influence in a voice in the organization. And I really would like to see organizations prioritizing them and listening to these coalitions really working hand in hand.
to not just offer lip service or just have them be this organization there to kind of provide a space for employees to share their experiences. But I think there needs to be more listening and more proving it with action to cite a Arthur Page value. I think organizations have to make good on these employee resource groups and actually enact what they’re hearing, calls for structural or cultural support.
Ana (19:50.633)
there to kind of provide a space for…
Ana (20:16.285)
But isn’t there such a difficult position to be in, not only as an organization, but also as someone in one of these affinity groups? In interviews that we’ve carried out, other guests on the podcast indicated how challenging these affinity groups can be, right? Because on the one hand,
You can find yourself in a group that is supportive and that understands your experience and can share that and can also provide you with advice or ways to move forward. On the other hand, the sheer being part of one group like that, an affinity group, makes it very obvious to the others that you are an other. And that is…
you know, for humans who usually want to be accepted and who would like to live harmoniously with others, putting themselves into a position of the other through these affinity groups is usually rather challenging. So you mentioned your research on listening organizations. I think my more unorthodox question would be, what is it that can organizations do to ensure
that while they support, and this is what you said, that the organizations should be supportive of these affinity groups, that while they support that, they don’t actually harm them more, but rather support them, advance their causes and bring that change that they might speak of.
Katie (21:51.234)
Yes.
Katie (21:59.32)
Well, we definitely saw this in the wake of social unrest of 2020. And a lot of the individuals that I interviewed with regard to this intersectional listening cited that organizations were unfortunately instrumentalizing these individuals and these affinity groups. For example, one African -American professional in particular in the Midwest said, well, the minute the murder of George Floyd happened, my
corporation, my agency asked me to do a little survey and they gave me more work to do as a person of color in the industry to speak out on people of color in my agency. And it was the opposite, I think, of what the individual needed in that time. They needed listening, they needed support, they needed structural change to enact policies that were going to
Ana (22:29.968)
by my agency as we did.
Katie (22:57.92)
offer care and support, but instead the organization really gave them more work to do. So it is, you speak very much to some of these situations where they’re instrumentalizing or using these groups to achieve an organizational lens. But what I’m hoping from these groups is not to other, but to enact like this real, what I’m calling ethical listening, where organizations need to
Ana (23:06.551)
It’s very much too subtle.
Katie (23:26.984)
listen with empathy and care and with that true
Katie (23:35.274)
I think this true duty to enact on what they’re hearing and again to really ensure that this group is relied upon as a key voice in the organization. In public relations, we talk a lot about the dominant coalition and maybe there’s less power here with regard to the dominant coalition. Maybe there needs to be more power to the professionals.
more power to these coalitions that are employee derived to hold organizations accountable. And I think organizations need to really listen.
Ana (24:17.331)
So that’s really interesting because when you talk about power, we talk about you’re moving away from this traditional view of decisions are being taken in close circles that are usually linked to a certain hierarchy within the organization. And as I said, you’re moving away from that to saying that there’s power in every individual and the networks, the coalitions that they build can therefore challenge.
those existing hierarchical structures and therefore bring change if change is what we’re looking after within the organization. But you also speak of commitment basically on the organizational side. And this is what I understand through listening and ethical listening, what you mean. Now, you’re an educator. We spoke about this often. Your research influences your teaching, informs your teaching.
and shapes either through direct insight or through reflection, shapes future generations of practitioners. How do you guide the next generations to challenge these gendered power dynamics, to advocate for practices in their career, for ethical listening, for moving away from all these isms?
that we’ve seen being lumped on together with all of the assumptions of what public relations and comms is supposed to do or not to do.
Katie (25:53.218)
Well, I’m teaching public relations principles right now and I do the same thing in my graduate courses. I think we need to start with a very real understanding of public relations history, how it was started, what are some of the unsavory foundations of the practice? And so I make sure my students are really hearing about the work of P .T. Barnum. They’re really…
We’re watching a lot of videos of Edward Bernays and Torches of Freedom or the Beech Nut Eggs and Bacon campaigns. But then I always have them really critique every single thing they see from an ethical standpoint, from a gender equality standpoint, from a power standpoint. And I just love some of the ways that the students are rethinking.
public relations and then we apply it to today. We’ve actually looked at some really difficult campaigns such as the Jewel vaping campaign and some unethical practices in terms of how Jewel has been marketed or communicated to youth. again, kind of learning what we’ve learned from propaganda, from unethical public relations, we’re addressing campaigns of today.
Ana (27:11.75)
Again, kind of learning what we’ve learned.
Katie (27:19.884)
So I want students to have that very critical eye as an ethical thinker, as someone who is also committed to gender and racial equity. We’ve also had fun watching firsthand accounts of women who are groundbreakers in the industry. So there are some fantastic video accounts of PR pros such as Barbara Hunter.
Ana (27:41.026)
There are some fantastic people.
Katie (27:46.888)
And Barbara Hunter speaks to just how challenging it was to be one of the first woman agency owners and how she had to speak up and enact influence and power and use her ethical chops to say, well, we’re going to take the agency in this direction. And the men that she was working with said, okay, well, we’re going to take our industry accounts this way. and
Ana (27:49.201)
you
Ana (28:12.24)
take our industry accounts this way and Barbara said yes we’re going to take our accounts this way and I imagine that at that time it must have been very hard to just stand up for what you think is right or also add
Katie (28:16.15)
Barbara said, yes, we’re going to take our accounts this way. And I imagine that at that time, it must have been very hard to just stand up for what you think is right or also advocate for women doing public relations and that, yes, we can take on any account. We can do this. We can do that. So just building out what it means to be a professional public relations practitioner.
Ana (28:37.426)
So just building out what it needs to
Katie (28:43.976)
So students really like that. I really like to just, again, help them to learn from the past and then we apply it to the future and we talk about what’s going on in the future now. The good and the bad. And what an incredible time to be teaching communications and public relations right now in the United States. But I know the world is watching as we are entering this very, I don’t even have a word for right now.
Ana (28:44.43)
So students really like that. I really like to just again help them to
Ana (28:56.124)
the good and the bad. What an incredible time to be teaching communications and public relations right now in the United States that I know the world is watching.
Ana (29:10.758)
I don’t even have a word for it. Very different.
Katie (29:13.322)
just the spectacle of the United States election process and season right now. it’s just offering itself just a fantastic time to help students think from a variety of different standpoints and really, again, use that critical thinking skills, think ethics and communications ethics and how can we best
communicate to diverse publics in a way that’s transparent and ethical and inclusive.
Ana (29:48.16)
You’ve emphasized on transparency and ethical a lot and in the context of the current political climate and it’s equally challenging in Europe. I wonder how do you link marginalization or the perception of marginalization with these polarizing discourses? Public relations in a sense…
advocates for transparency and for connecting communities. On the other hand, as you’ve mentioned earlier, these being part of an affinity group, whether it’s a women’s network, whether it is a religious group, political group, brings comfort. And so as a communicator, I wonder what are the discussions that you’re having in the classroom? How do you
How do your students and how do you navigate these conversations where on the one hand, communicators would make values -based choices that align with their values, with their experience, and that might be their experience of marginalization. And at the same time, those same choices, instead of uniting, might be polarizing. How do they see the role
In that case, I know it’s a very difficult question. This is something that gets us very busy as well in our conversations here in Germany and in my classes as well. As a communicator, you’re supposed to unite, but you can’t leave yourself at home, right? Not part of you. So how do we train? think how do we speak with our students and practitioners as well? What do we leave behind as a
as a profession.
Katie (31:40.716)
Yes, we’ve had this conversation and a lot of professional venues as well. And one thing I think we need to do amidst this incredible polarization is never stop listening. And I think teaching that to my students is going to be just so important for them. And a lot of professionals have asked me this too. My boss has said, we are not going to listen to those.
activists or those adversaries over there, but I think we should. What should I do? you know, we’ve really, as students, as professionals and educators, tried to really work through that. And again, I think the most ethical thing we can do as professionals or educators is to always hold space, always hold space for listening to that diversity of experience, whether it’s lived experience or political experience or
Ana (32:26.247)
you
Katie (32:37.794)
professional experience. And just even holding an openness to listen to those lived experiences or those differences of opinion are so important. We get into a lot of hot water and crisis mode when we don’t engage in listening, whether it’s organizations or communities or, you know, members across the aisle politically. And
Ana (32:52.562)
We get into a lot of hot water in crisis mode.
Katie (33:06.144)
I think when we, maybe even one thing we’ve talked about is reframing that adversary or reframing that person who might seem so different as maybe not an adversary, but someone I could learn something from. And you know, it’s not that way in every single case, but approaching every interaction professionally in the workplace and education in our classroom or in our communities with curiosity.
I think it’s going to be so important. So I’m curious. You could say, why do you think that way? Or why are you, why are we approaching the client or why are we approaching the campaign messaging that way? And just start a dialogue and a conversation. And I think that is just foundational to everything we’re learning and teaching our students in public relations. We want to do whatever we can to foster transparency and openness of communication.
Ana (33:39.717)
it.
Ana (33:55.34)
that every
Katie (34:04.204)
We want to foster hopefully mutually beneficial relationships with whatever public we’re engaging with inside or outside of an organization. And it’s really fun right now to teach that during a lot of, a lot of tough times right now in class, kind of talking about emerging trends and, and all of this. The students are just wanting to know more and more about, you know, artificial intelligence and what are we going to do?
So we were just looking at all the headlines of how Donald Trump utilized the likeness of Taylor Swift without her permission. And some of the headlines, they got it. We were looking at just the evolution of the news headlines and what actually happened. And it was really interesting to see how they said, well, she can have a lawsuit.
or she can use this situation to educate and mobilize millions and millions of women and youth around the world to register to vote. And that’s what she did. And it’s from something that was so at the moment, know, AI is really at the federal level here in the United States, it’s not regulated. And he kind of got away with something so awful, but she used it to make a statement, to speak back about it and then mobilize.
Ana (35:22.352)
so awful but she used it to make a statement to speak back about it.
Katie (35:27.488)
maybe millions of women to then go vote. And it’s really an exciting time to kind of research communications and all these, the good and the bad and help students think critically about what’s gonna come out of all of this.
Ana (35:30.929)
It’s really an exciting time to kind of research communications and all these, the good and the
Ana (35:44.188)
So we’ve spoken about the need to do a little bit more research around lived experience and how, in a sense, we can all be marginalised at any point in our career lives or otherwise. And honing on both that empathy and curiosity, so building on that empathy and curiosity, these challenging topics.
into a space of dialogue, right? Where we don’t necessarily expect a particular outcome, but we open ourselves to listen, not we open ourselves to listen, to respond. So, and you’ve mentioned AI as something that gets so beyond polarization. AI is something that as a trend that is influencing your conversations with your students. To wrap up our conversation for today, are there any other trends that you think are going to
have an impact on PR practitioners and maybe even more of an impact on women working in this space.
Katie (36:47.042)
Thank
Katie (36:54.092)
Yes, I think AI is definitely something we need to do more research on. And we need to look at it from the legislative and ethical standpoint. It’s largely unregulated. And so we have to stay on our toes as educators and researchers to understand how will this impact our students? How will this continue to shift and change the public relations work we’re doing here in the US? In the eyes of the law, it’s content. There isn’t a f
a line that discerns public relations work from AI work, from social media, from marketing, it’s content. And so we all have a responsibility to be well versed in the law and the ethics of this. I also think there’s something to shift very abruptly in terms of women and marginalized publics and public relations.
Ana (37:39.026)
think there’s something to shift.
Katie (37:49.376)
We haven’t yet answered the call of something Elizabeth Toth told me to do one day. And we were chit chatting one day about, we haven’t done enough research on why individuals have left the industry. And in terms of women, terms of people of color, in terms of going back to age discrimination, we need to understand those stories just as much.
Ana (37:50.684)
yet answered the call of something.
should try to.
Katie (38:15.666)
as the stories of people who are living and working in public relations now, what hasn’t been heard, what hasn’t been addressed. And so all of my qualitative scholars out there, I think there’s so much work to be done in terms of lived experience and life history interviews and these wonderful qualitative accounts of people who have left.
and why. And maybe from there we can get a better understanding of the policy, structural, cultural, and think about like dialogic, the narratives that are just largely uncaptured of power or lack thereof or inequality in the workplace. So I can’t wait to see what research will come.
out of that call. is what I’m urging the future scholars in PR to maybe start addressing.
Ana (39:17.362)
Well, that’s great. So focus on also what’s missing rather than what is there and obvious. Katie, thank you so very much for your time. We’ll also make sure to listen to your podcast. I hear you do have one.
Katie (39:34.774)
Yes, and I can’t wait to have you be on my podcast, So it’s thank you for listening and give it a listen. And I cannot wait to promote your podcast as well and share it widely with everyone in my community.
Ana (39:49.54)
I wasn’t fishing for that compliment, but thank you. I’m the one who’s grateful. Good luck on your own podcasting experiences. Let’s hope that we’re going to hear way more about these intersectionality experiences in public relations and also those stories that you’ve mentioned of practitioners that decided to change fields to whatever that is and why. Well, again, thank you for joining the show and until
the next time.
Katie (40:20.428)
Yes, thank you again. It was great to chat with you.